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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |

Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1152
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Posted - 2012.05.09 16:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
In nutshell - it is ok to give people ability to have everything in one window as long they can choose whether or not they want/can/prefer to use such set up. Currently that will not be possible even in wildest fantasies.
Here is a little story for you guys which will explain what and why to expect from unified inventory. Don't be too optimistic.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1156
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Posted - 2012.05.10 17:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Guys, honestly, the teams and I appreciate the feedback, and we do read it.
There is a recurrent theme in this thread of "change isn't improvement, its change", and to that I would just say look at the evolution of software as a whole - compare Windows 95 to Windows 8, IE to Chrome, etc - things can't be static forever and must evolve, sometimes in a dramatic way. Usability issues are excellent feedback. Simply saying "it's different, I don't want to adjust, give me the old one" is not particularly useful to the team. They have selected the design direction they are going in and it's not just a case of putting in a checkbox that says "use old system X" to cater to those who aren't keen on a slight adjustment to a system.
Please do keep the usability feedback coming though - for instance, the behaviour of using "loot all" and then having an extra cargo window - this is the kind of use issue that can be dealt with.
So in other words you're willing to rename tomato to Tomato but not willing to do anything about it being a tomato.
Your said that "They have selected the design direction". Who is they? Are they the end users? If so - why the feedback is like this?
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1156
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Posted - 2012.05.10 17:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Rendus wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Guys, honestly, the teams and I appreciate the feedback, and we do read it.
There is a recurrent theme in this thread of "change isn't improvement, its change", and to that I would just say look at the evolution of software as a whole - compare Windows 95 to Windows 8, IE to Chrome, etc - things can't be static forever and must evolve, sometimes in a dramatic way. Usability issues are excellent feedback. Simply saying "it's different, I don't want to adjust, give me the old one" is not particularly useful to the team. They have selected the design direction they are going in and it's not just a case of putting in a checkbox that says "use old system X" to cater to those who aren't keen on a slight adjustment to a system.
Evolving Software? Sure fine. But tools need to retain basic principals and functionality. Just taking a basic functioning tool and replace it with "new" doesn't mean you've replaced it with "better" necessarily. (MSWindows has proven that concept over and over.) Taking a stone wheel and upgrading it to a steel hub with rubber tire is an improvement but doesn't change the design or functionality. That's positive evolution. But what we have here is a round wheel that has been replaced with an octagonal shape with an off-center axle hole. Sure it still kinda of works, but it's hard to think that it's an improvement. You've made the functional use of the tool harder to complete. That's why people are upset. (imho) Interesting analogy  . I personally look at it more like the evolution from a Flintstones model of car (totally functional, pretty basic) to a modern day automobile - there's a ton of bells and whistles on it, you're not sure if you need or want them all (but hey they're free so might as well take them), the only drawback is you need to learn how to drive it!
This is probably the reason why you should not continue in your current assignment any longer than this 1 month. If you fail to see the difference between modern day automobile and a car without wheels, it really doesn't matter is there even a driver who could operate it.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1157
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Posted - 2012.05.10 18:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote: So I have a philosophical question that I am curious about. Why are so many people intent on interacting with items via the tree view and not via the ships window properly?
We actually implemented double clicking to board ships, so you can open the ships window and board ships by double clicking. This is much faster than dragging them to the station scene?
How do you open container? How do you open cargo hold of a ship? Do you always expect people to board your ship before you open the cargo hold of it? Then answer is so clear that I don't even need to tell it to you.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1157
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 18:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote: Finally a big concern that is being raised again and again, is multiple window usage. We are already investigating this and hope that we can fix it in time.
This is not about hope really. It's a choice you make knowingly. You can either postpone this feature until it is ready for tranq and put it out in some point patch or you can push it out unfinished and **** loads of people. It is act which you make while being fully aware about the consequences.
CCP RubberBAND wrote: However on a personal note, every time I have to go back from the Unified Inventory to multiple windows, I cringe. We understand the usability concerns raised here, but once people have been given some time to acclimatize themselves, we strongly believe that this will provide the best user experience.
Do not be afraid that this would be the case.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1160
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Posted - 2012.05.10 20:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Half of the observations in this thread are valid and should be considered for tweaking.
The other half appear to come from people that either haven't actually used the system, or don't understand how a simple tree view works. Read this and understand what you're reading http://i45.tinypic.com/2yunfb6.jpg
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1161
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Posted - 2012.05.10 21:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Maul555 wrote:Just Alter wrote:CCP RubberBAND wrote:-snip- Great post. In fact, awesome post! Now i really want to see who dares to say "incarna" again. It's clear these guys are still working on this thing and they're really listening to feedbacks. As i said, it needs polishing but i already prefer it to the old one in fact i prefer playing on sisi than tq right now for that reson. Great stuff. They are just promising to polish up the door when most of us would rather not see it at all! ill say it again.. INCARNA!... Now how long untill they realize this and give us our old spinny spinny hangers back, like last time. But it's not the same thing! It's nothing at all like incarna! This is just slander! Yea... this time I wont even bother shooting the (amarr) statue. I just take the short way out and retire to waiting for email with some free game time and apology from CCP. That is if this thing goes live without proper multi window support.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1161
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Posted - 2012.05.10 21:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote: Yea... this time I wont even bother shooting the (amarr) statue. I just take the short way out and retire to waiting for email with some free game time and apology from CCP. That is if this thing goes live without proper multi window support.
This is just a feature; you may like it or not but comparing it to incarna is absolutely bonkers. It is a feature what breaks the game just as efficiently as removing hangar did. New version works but it won't be even close as convenient to use. I've tested it enough in test server to tell, that there won't be a day I would do any industry related tasks with my alts using the unified window if the old functionality isn't there.
This will be big enough game changer for me to say good bye rather than **** myself off daily trying to tolerate what they did.
If you get orgasm from me doing that - good for you. Remember to keep some hand wipes near.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1162
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Posted - 2012.05.11 09:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thankfully Tippia still has the patience to present all the problems and facts in calm and non offending way. I lost that ability after few days of ignorance and got tired sinking the nail in with gentle blows. It is really unfortunate that it takes almost a week and sledgehammer to even get some thinking going.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1174
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Posted - 2012.05.11 11:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote: Our intention is to improve the user experience not hamper it.
At this point actions speak more than words. I can give you hint though - the stuff you have at SiSi now is not an improvement.
This shall be my last statement related to this issue for now. During Inferno launch day we will see how much truth your sentence had in it.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1189
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Posted - 2012.05.12 15:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'm not very big fan of split windows if the alternative is to have separate windows.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1189
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Posted - 2012.05.12 15:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Assigning some commands more commands to ctrl key would be bad idea because is the famous default target something key, besides "shift + double click" is the default action to open something to new window.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1192
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Posted - 2012.05.12 22:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
I admit that I'm pretty drunk at the moment when writing this but I but I have to give plenty of respect to the guy/chick behind the previous post. I particularly liked the lines
"As I said above, I mostly use the index to shift-click the labels to open the individual windows. I rarely ever use the window that's next to the index at all. In fact, with the way my EVE screen is set up, I would prefer to have the index on my right hand side. Could there be an option to *only* show the index, and to open individual inventory windows on double-click?"
which pretty much follows what I think about Unified inventory in general;
It should be starting point or feature in single window, which gives plenty of new wonderful options to open windows. It has been been said many times that multible windows are sometimes necessaries. Some task you can you perform with one window but not all of them. This new menu of yours gives excellent source to access them, but it is not necessarily the optimal way to interact with them.
Think about that - I can't do much of that because I'm so wasted at the moment.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1194
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Posted - 2012.05.13 01:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
I doubt that you really think about split windows, but just in case: split window would take 2x more screen estate than 2 stacked windows if preferred to stack them.
I strongly recommend that you stick with plan to have one window which can be expanded to as many windows as the end user pleases. It is important that any extra windows can be stacked and they will remember their locations between sessions. Only then this new system can be improvement to the old one in functionality that it has.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1194
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 06:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:I doubt that you really think about split windows, but just in case: split window would take 2x more screen estate than 2 stacked windows if preferred to stack them.
I strongly recommend that you stick with plan to have one window which can be expanded to as many windows as the end user pleases. It is important that any extra windows can be stacked and they will remember their locations between sessions. Only then this new system can be improvement to the old one in functionality that it has. That's too easy... The little arrows I left on the top left corner of the pane minimize one pane thus reducing the used real estate. EDIT: And how would that make it any different or improve on the current live inventory system. Because frankly, the one on TQ is atrocious. We're just so used to using it we're accustomed to it's terribleness. For example, the slight hesitation the entire game has when clicking through stacked/tabbed windows. Or when stacking windows. A few people have complained that the 'loading' animation is annoying. I have to say it's a lot less annoying than the whole game waiting for a corporate hangar to load. I would agree with you if you were asking split window to one window with all the fancy other extra bits.
I don't really mind how good/bad the "one" window is as long I can open plenty of standard old fashioned windows, set them as I want and trust that they stick where I put them. Everything added to that will most likely be improvement - your idea included.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1196
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 12:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Anyway, random mumblings. I'm writing a long-form blog post about it as well, but it'll take a while to finishGǪ excellent video... should open some eyes.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1218
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Posted - 2012.05.15 21:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Just finished quick test run with newest sisi client.
Good thing is that opening new windows seems to be easier now as shift key is more widely supported. However client wasn't still willing to keep the "extra" windows open and where I left them between undock/dock sessions.
Also double clicking hangar background should always open active ships cargo bay to new window (if not open already). Current behaviour where this function opens/closes same window than neocom's inventory button feels really wrong (however if you feel really strongly against this, please at least make it so, that above happens when you're holding shift key down when double clicking the background).
Also you might want to go to esc menu, set easy theme selection, put desert theme on and look how the inventory window becomes pretty unusable. Open market window next to it and you'll figure what is wrong with the colours you're using.
Anyway just quick test run - didn't really invest much time to this now as apparently you already got new version coming.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1221
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Posted - 2012.05.16 17:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:Just finished quick test run with newest sisi client.
Good thing is that opening new windows seems to be easier now as shift key is more widely supported. However client wasn't still willing to keep the "extra" windows open and where I left them between undock/dock sessions.
Also double clicking hangar background should always open active ships cargo bay to new window (if not open already). Current behaviour where this function opens/closes same window than neocom's inventory button feels really wrong (however if you feel really strongly against this, please at least make it so, that above happens when you're holding shift key down when double clicking the background).
Also you might want to go to esc menu, set easy theme selection, put desert theme on and look how the inventory window becomes pretty unusable. Open market window next to it and you'll figure what is wrong with the colours you're using.
Anyway just quick test run - didn't really invest much time to this now as apparently you already got new version coming. Ok... with today's build shift double clicking hangar background opens active ships cargo bay to new window. This is good thing. However this happens only if primary inventory is already open. If it isn't - it cargo opens to the primary inventory window. This shouldn't be happening.You kind of want to open the "same new window" with same size and position every time. This shouldn't be related to which other windows are open unless checking should we stack something or not.
Also all other "extra" window positions are still not stored and restored properly between various sessions. This is the primary issue what absolutely has to be fixed before going live. This basically prevents people from building their user interfaces back up and making them work as they want them to work. There is no single person (ok maybe 1 or 2 really crazy ones) who would rebuild everything from the scratch every time they dock/undock/login/change system. People may do that couple times and then they throw their keyboard trough the monitor. Basically...
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1231
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Posted - 2012.05.18 12:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Quick test revealed that actually with today's build it starts to look much better. "Extra" windows now seem to remember their size and position in station when you undock and dock back in. Only thing they don't remember is their previous state and still won't reappear when you dock back in. However there definitely has been huge improvement.
Just one more step to something I could actually be using. Starting to have some real faith again.
Good work.
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Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1241
|
Posted - 2012.05.21 18:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Now - at the evening - day before winferno launch - all extra windows still refuse to reopen when you re-enter station. They seem to remember their size and position, but still need to manually open all again.
Folder menu still has wrong background style as for example using desert theme colours makes the it pretty unreadable. Background should be same colour than in other menus like that (for example in market).
Opening ships cargo bay by double clicking hangar background opens cargo in inventory window. Double clicking hangar background while holding shift opens it to new window. However this only happens if inventory window is already open (should not need to be) and double clicking hangar background again (while still holding shift) opens another copy of cargo window to yet another new window. It should "activate", "bring to front" or "close if already active and in front" the previous copy instead.
Didn't even bother to test the space, looting, system change functionality any more because - well - I'm just fed up...
If someone wants to give it more in depth final verdict - be my guest.
If this goes live tomorrow, I'm heading to play diablo 3. CCP may email me with some nice reactivation offer when (and if) this has been fixed. Rather do something fun than get myself angry with something what I don't want to use in it's current form.
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